Shelach: The Spies and Echoes From the Past | Into The Verse Podcast

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Into The Verse | Season 1 | Episode 12

Shelach: The Spies and Echoes From the Past

In Parshat Shelach, we read the story of the spies who ventured to the land of Israel and brought back a false report to the Israelites. Have you ever noticed that their report is strikingly similar to another story from earlier in the Torah?

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In This Episode

Think about it: a group of twelve men, ten of whom committed a terrible sin and two of whom were innocent... sound familiar? Join Beth Lesch and Rivky Stern as they explore the echoes that resound in the story of the spies.

Looking for the Tisha b'Av course that Imu mentions at the end, in which he and Rabbi Fohrman further explore these parallels? Check it out here.

Curious to learn more about the "Vayeishev" theory that Beth and Rivky mention? Check out Rabbi Fohrman's course here.

What did you think of this episode? We’d genuinely like to hear your thoughts, questions, and feedback. Leave us a voice message – just click here, click record, and let your thoughts flow. You may even be featured on the show!

Transcript

Imu Shalev: Welcome to Into the Verse, where we share new and unexpected insights about the parsha, diving deep into the verses to uncover the Torah’s own commentary on itself.

This week I have a very special treat for you: two extraordinary women, scholars here at Aleph Beta. Beth Lesch is going to present her research on Parshat Shelach to Rivky Stern. And I’ve got to tell you that it is one of the most dynamic and interesting conversations that I have listened to in a long time. 

I read the story of the spies every single year, kind of the way you watch those old horror movies where the woman walks into the alleyway where the scary bad guy is, and it's just so obvious that she shouldn’t walk into that alleyway, so it's like the entire theater is screaming, “Don’t go in there!” That's what the story of the spies is like for me. But in another way, it’s kind of mundane; I don’t expect to get very much new out of the story of the spies. And as far as the Torah as a guidebook is concerned, a book that’s supposed to have meaning and relevance to me, I’m not exactly sure what the takeaway is supposed to be for me. Next time I get sent on a spy mission, maybe I’m supposed to just say nice things about the land of Israel? That’s my takeaway? Well, Beth Lesch did an extraordinary close read of the story of the spies — and whether you’re new to Torah or you've been studying for many years, I guarantee you’ll be blown away by the incredible richness that Beth and Rivky discover together. Here, take a listen.

Beth Lesch: So here we go, Parshat Shelach. I was reading through it last night and I noticed some things that sounded familiar. So I kept digging and I found more and more and more stuff. It really seems to be something here. I'm not sure what to make of it yet. I have a lot of questions. So what I want you and me, Rivky, to do is to play with it all together. Rivky, what are the main elements in the story of the spies? How would you recount it? 

Rivky Stern: So Parashat Shelach, right at the beginning of this week's parasha, God tells Moses: Moses, send out some people, and they're going to spy out the land, the land of Canaan which we're about to come to, the land that I'm going to give you, to the people of Israel. And then Moses basically does so. He sends out a bunch of people; he sends one person out from each tribe. And then they come back and they give a report to the whole people of Israel and they say, Oh my God, it was beautiful, but actually it was also a little bit scary. There were some intense fortifications… and they were, like: Actually, you know, the land is beautiful, but I don't think we're going to be able to handle this. Then the people basically freaked out.

Beth: So I'm going to say it back to you, and as I say this back to you, I want you to be thinking: Where have I heard this before? 

Moses takes these men and sends them on a mission. And what's the mission? The mission is that they're supposed to go see something. They’re supposed to see, and what else are they supposed to do?

Rivky: They're supposed to see and then report back.

Beth: Exactly. They go, they come back, and when they come back, mourning ensues.

Rivky: Uh-huh. I think I'm kind of getting a flavor here, but keep going.

Beth: And one other thing, one other element that I'll point out to you, which is: Of those twelve men that got sent out on this mission, did all twelve of them do something wrong?

Rivky: No.

Beth: So how many – who were the good guys and who were the bad guys?

Rivky: There were ten bad guys, and that was the representatives of all of the tribes except for two tribes. Judah, whose representative Caleb ben Yefuneh – he actually stood up and said to the people of Israel, Don't be scared, don't worry, we got this, when they seemed to be afraid. The other one was Joshua, who was the representative of Ephraim. So the good guys here were the representatives from Judah and Ephraim, and the bad guys were everyone else.

Beth: Twelve men, each one representing one of the b’nei Yisrael (children of Israel), go out on a mission. They're supposed to see something; they’re supposed to bring back word. They come back, ten of them do something terrible, two of them are innocent, and mourning ensues. What does this remind you of? Where else have you heard this before?

Rivky: So, I mean, the parallels don’t exactly line up, and I think that's part of what we're going to explore, if this is the correct story, but it feels like the sale of Joseph. Right? It feels like when Jacob, Israel, sent out Joseph to go find his other sons, and he said to him, Oh, they're shepherding out there, go and get them. When he goes to find them, of course, he's sold and ends up in Egypt. And then when the brothers come home and they say, Hey, actually, we think Joseph died – of course they're lying to their father, but basically disaster ensues.

Beth: Come with me to the story of the sale of Joseph: Bereshit (Genesis) 37, verse 14, Jacob sending Joseph on a mission: לֶךְ נָא רְאֵה אֶת שְׁלוֹם אַחֶיךָ וְאֶת שְׁלוֹם הַצֹּאן – go and see the welfare of your brothers and the welfare of their flock, וַהֲשִׁבֵנִי דָּבָר – and bring back word,  וַיִּשְׁלָחֵהוּ מֵעֵמֶק חֶבְרוֹן וַיָּבֹא שְׁכֶמָה – and he sends him out from the valley of Hebron and he comes to Shechem.

What words do you see in here already that remind you of the spies?

Rivky: I mean, the first instinct to me is just שלח (shelach, “send”). Our parasha starts with שְׁלַח לְךָ אֲנָשִׁים – send out men (Numbers 13:2), and in the same way וַיִּשְׁלָחֵהוּ – he sends him out.

Beth: So we have שְׁלַח. Come with me to Shelach, and we'll see if we can find some of these words reappearing. Take a look at verse 18. What does he tell them to do? Go up into the mountains and...

Rivky: וּרְאִיתֶם אֶת הָאָרֶץ –  and you should see the land (Numbers 13:18).

Beth: Good. So I'm sending you. So do you see that same language of seeing? Does it look like the same verb?

Rivky: Yes, because if you go back to Jacob, he says, לֶךְ נָא רְאֵה – go and see. Go and check on the welfare of your brothers and of the flock, but it uses the same language of רְאֵה, go see this thing. Interesting, cool.

Beth: Exactly. Now, come with me to verse 26. The spies go and then they come back and what do they do when they come back?

Rivky: וַיָּשִׁיבוּ אֹתָם דָּבָר וְאֶת כׇּל הָעֵדָה – and they bring back word to them and to the whole nation (Numbers 13:26). Very cool. So if you go back into the story of Jacob and Joseph, it's the same thing. What happens? וַהֲשִׁבֵנִי דָּבָר – Jacob tells Joseph “and bring back word.” Report back to me afterwards, how's everything going?

Now, I see the next lines also. Right? So what happens in the story of the spies, in our parasha? וַיַּרְאוּם אֶת פְּרִי הָאָרֶץ – So what do they do? They don't only give back word; they show them the fruit of the land (Numbers 13:26).

Well, we know the story of Jacob and Joseph. What happens when the brothers actually return? They show their father something. They show him that bloody coat.

Beth: Very nice. They show him the bloody coat.

Rivky: Sorry, if I'm jumping the gun a little bit, but I'm getting excited.

Beth: No, no, no, no. And then what does Jacob say when he sees the coat? What does he think happened on the basis of seeing that coat?

Rivky: What the brothers want him to think. He thinks that he was killed.

Beth: Killed how?

Rivky:  חַיָּה רָעָה אֲכָלָתְהוּ - some sort of wild animal destroyed him and ate him (Genesis 37:33). 

Beth: Now back to the story of the spies. What do they say about the land?

Rivky: Oh, interesting. So when they're saying that – basically they're like, this isn't worth it, we're going to get killed, we're going to get destroyed, the language they use is: הָאָרֶץ אֲשֶׁר עָבַרְנוּ בָהּ לָתוּר אֹתָהּ אֶרֶץ אֹכֶלֶת יוֹשְׁבֶיהָ הִוא – The land that we came to scout out is a land that eats its inhabitants (Numbers 13:32). It's the same language. It almost makes it sound like the land is some sort of crazy animal that's just going to eat everyone, the same way this wild animal ate Joseph.

Beth: Exactly. So this is a land that devours its inhabitants. Now, let's see some more of these parallels, because I'm telling you, Rivky, I was looking at this last night and the more I looked, the more I saw.

Rivky: Okay, keep going.

Beth: Now, let's look at what happens. We already said – I gave you a heads-up – there's a mourning that happens in reaction to the spies' report. So let's take a look at, I think, this is going to be in chapter 14 of Numbers. So we see the first reaction from the people in the first verse there.

Rivky: וַתִּשָּׂא כׇּל הָעֵדָה וַיִּתְּנוּ אֶת קוֹלָם וַיִּבְכּוּ הָעָם בַּלַּיְלָה הַהוּא – So they all sort of lifted up their voices and they started crying. They wept that whole night (Numbers 14:1). 

Beth: So we have crying. Come with me down to pasuk vav (verse 6).

Rivky: So that's when, basically, the two guys who we said were the good guys, which were Joshua and Caleb, they basically are distraught. So what do they do? קָרְעוּ בִּגְדֵיהֶם – they tore their clothes.

Beth: We’ve got crying. We’ve got tearing of clothes. Come with me down to verse 39. What else did they do in reaction?

Rivky: וַיִּתְאַבְּלוּ הָעָם מְאֹד  – and the people start mourning.

Beth: Crying, tearing of clothes, and mourning. Now come back to the sale of Joseph. Take a look at the way the Torah describes Jacob's reaction. What does Jacob do?

Rivky: As soon as he sees the bloody coat and he thinks that an animal has destroyed his son,  וַיִּקְרַע יַעֲקֹב שִׂמְלֹתָיו – he immediately tears his clothes (Genesis 37:34), וַיִּתְאַבֵּל עַל בְּנוֹ יָמִים רַבִּים – and he starts mourning his son and he mourns for many, many days  (Genesis 37:34). Then the end of the verse says וַיֵּבְךְּ אֹתוֹ אָבִיו that his father is, he's weeping for him. He will not be consoled. He just continues to weep (Genesis 37:34). Beth, very, very cool. 

Beth: And one more thing. This is the thing that really sealed the deal for me. Come with me back to Numbers 13:32.

Rivky: וַיֹּצִיאוּ דִּבַּת הָאָרֶץ and the spies, after they came back, they spread this evil report about the Land.

Beth: Awesome. Where else do we come across the word דבה (report)? Does that ring any bells for you?

Rivky: דבה. I mean, I want to say my first instinct is the story of the sale of Joseph, but not because I actually know the content, but just because that's where I'm leaning towards.

Beth: All right. So you’ve got good gambling instincts, Rivky Stern. So the answer is – we're in chapter 37, looking at the sale of Joseph – I want you to scroll, turn, flip up to the second verse in that perek (chapter) and tell me what happens.

Rivky: Here we go. This perek (chapter) is chock full, right? At the end of it is the actual sale of Joseph. The beginning also includes Joseph's dreams and everything like that. So let me go back to the beginning.

אֵלֶּה תֹּלְדוֹת יַעֲקֹב – these are the toldot, the generations of Jacob, וֹסֵף בֶּן שְׁבַע עֶשְׂרֵה שָׁנָה – Joseph was seventeen years old, הָיָה רֹעֶה אֶת אֶחָיו בַּצֹּאן – he was shepherding the flock with his brothers,  וְהוּא נַעַר אֶת בְּנֵי בִלְהָה וְאֶת בְּנֵי זִלְפָּה – and he was, I guess, a kid with the sons of Bilhah and Zilpah, נְשֵׁי אָבִיו – the wives of his father,  וַיָּבֵא יוֹסֵף אֶת דִּבָּתָם רָעָה אֶל אֲבִיהֶם – Joseph brings back a דבה, Joseph brings back evil reports of them (Genesis 37:2). He kind of tells on them to his father. Very cool.

Beth: Here's the thing. This word דבה (report), how many times do you think it appears in the whole Chumash?

Rivky: I'm not very familiar with the word, so my guess, again, if my instincts are correct, is two. I'm guessing it appears twice.

Beth: Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! Joseph's report about his brothers and the spies’ report about the Land. 

Rivky: Pretty interesting stuff, Beth.

Beth: And there's even more evidence than what we've gone into. It's really unbelievable, so I encourage anyone who has time to sit and try to have fun with it. I think there's another conceptual parallel between these two sins, these two accounts – the sin of the spies and the sin of the sale of Joseph – which I think these pieces of evidence are pointing us to.

We know that the sin of the spies led to a very specific and very tragic consequence. What was the tragic consequence of the sin of the spies?

Rivky: It was the major delay. It was the entire nation died and there was a 40-year delay before the people were allowed to enter the land of Israel. Before the sin of the spies, the people were going to go straight into the land of Canaan. Right? It was supposed to be a pretty quick journey. The people were going to go straight in. But after the sin of the spies, basically, God says to the people: Look, you're obviously not ready for this. This is not going to happen. Instead, the entire nation has to die out and their children, their descendants, they will be allowed into the land forty years later.

Beth: So what I'm hearing you say is: God has a plan for the people, and the plan involves coming to His land and settling it and flourishing in His land. But then there's this sin committed amongst b’nei Yisrael, and as a result of that sin, God has to intervene, and He institutes a waiting period. He says: You're not ready for this. You need a little while longer before you can come to My land and settle in it. How much longer? Forty years. What's the parallel? Is there a parallel to the sale of Joseph?

Rivky: Oh my God. Beth, this is so, so cool.

Beth: You like it?

Rivky: Let me just think it out, and tell me if I'm missing pieces or tell me if this wasn't exactly what you had in mind. Basically, what was happening with the sons of Jacob? Jacob was building a family in this land. He was able to bring everyone back from the house of Laban and he was building this nation.

But then after the sale of Joseph, when Joseph goes down to Egypt, becomes a powerful person, basically the entire family ends up moving down. They all leave the land of Canaan. It's like God saying, Look, this clearly wasn't meant to be. If it weren't for the sale of Joseph, we can only imagine what could have been. The nation of Israel could have started. There would be no Exodus. There would be no slavery. There would be no need to bring the people through the מדבר (desert), through the forty-year journey. There would be no sin of the spies. None of this would have happened without chapter 37 of Genesis, without the sale of Joseph.

It's crazy that – I mean, it's depressing, but it's a fascinating thing – to imagine what could have been. And then in some ways it’s so sad.

Beth: It's tragic. Come with me to the beginning – again, the beginning of the chapter of the sale of Joseph. Rabbi Fohrman makes this point, and I love this.  וַיֵּשֶׁב יַעֲקֹב בְּאֶרֶץ מְגוּרֵי אָבִיו בְּאֶרֶץ כְּנָעַן – Jacob dwelled  in the land of his father’s sojourning, in the land of Canaan (Genesis 37:1). Rabbi Fohrman says: Look at this language. There's a few different ways that you can say “to settle,” and two of them appear in this verse. What do you see?

Rivky: There's וַיֵּשֶׁב יַעֲקֹב - Jacob dwelled, and there's בְּאֶרֶץ מְגוּרֵי אָבִיו – in the land of his father’s sojourning.

Beth: So לגור and לשבת – how are those words different?

Rivky: וישב is living. וישב isn't visiting. וישב isn't like putting up a tent. וישב is building a foundation. וישב is building a house and saying: Good, I found it. I found the place I'm retiring. I found the place I'm raising – not only raising my children, I'm going to be hosting my grandchildren. וישב is really living there, and this is your future and this is what you're building.

בְּאֶרֶץ מְגוּרֵי אָבִיו – To גור is sort of visiting. What Jacob is saying here is: Look, what I'm getting to do is what my father and my grandfather – they never got to do this. They lived in Canaan, but they were more visitors. They didn't get to really, really settle this land.

Beth: If you're just here in 37 and you've never read the Torah before and you get up to this verse, this is where you think the dream is going to be realized. You think that Jacob is about to start the dream. Then what happens in the very next verse? דבה, and it unravels coming out of the דבה.

I wonder if that's not part of what we're supposed to be learning from these stories. There was the sin of Joseph. The Torah isn't clear about the fact that the descent to Egypt and the slavery for four hundred years in Egypt was a consequence of the sale of Joseph, but I wonder if that's what these parallels are telling us. That we went down to Egypt, we stayed there as slaves, and the four hundred years weren't enough.

We showed that when it came to the sin of the spies. We needed forty more. We needed one more generation to die out before we were really ready to actually inherit the land.

Rivky: It's devastating to think about, right? In the same way that it's almost like Jacob's ready to settle, and God says to him: Look, I know you wanted to do this, and I wanted it for you also, but, look at what's happening around you. Clearly we're not at that stage yet. I'm sorry, but it's not time.

It's almost the same. It's like Moses is maybe the Jacob character here, and God's saying: Look, I wanted the people to be ready also. I also wanted to bring them into Canaan and for this whole period to be over, but you know what, look, they're not ready yet. We need a little bit more time.

Beth: Here's the thing, Rivky. The textual parallels are there. I think they speak for themselves. And the consequences of the sins seem to be the same. The consequences of both sins seem to be that these are key turning points in the history of b’nei Yisrael where God has a plan for His people, but the people commit some sin that causes God to intervene and institute a waiting period before they can really settle His land and flourish as a family. The consequences are the same.

But what I still don't understand is: How are the sins fundamentally similar? How is Joseph speaking דבה about his brothers – bringing an evil report about his brothers – how is that fundamentally similar to the sin of the spies, speaking דבה about the Land? 

Rivky: It's interesting, right? I mean, I don't know the answer, but right now I'm thinking: So what is it that's so devastating about speaking ill of other people? Mom, you won't believe what my sister did to me – right? What's the problem there? Why does that bother my mom? Why is that so fundamentally upsetting?

Because my sister and I are supposed to be in relationship with each other. Our job is not to be telling on each other. Yeah, sometimes my sister's going to do things that bother me. I'm going to do things that bother her. The reason that's problematic, though, is because we're supposed to love each other. That relationship is one that's meant to be based on love. And when – this is just a theory, I'm just sort of thinking this out – when Joseph goes to Jacob and says, Look at what these guys are doing, look at what's going on, whatever, he's sort of breaking apart their relationship. He's thinking about his relationship with Jacob. Maybe he's like, Oh, I want to be the favorite and I want to be the – there’s something there, but he's ruining the relationship between brother and brother.

That breakdown, I think, is painful. It's painful for Joseph. It's painful, obviously, for his brothers, for the sons of Bilhah and Zilpah, and it's also painful for Jacob, because Jacob wants his sons to be in relationship with each other. And it's painful for God. Meaning – this whole thing, right – so much of Torah is about building relationships. Relationships with one another, relationships within our family, relationships outside our family, relationships with God. And this sort of דבה is a breakdown of relationship.

It's not exactly the same thing, but in Shelach, when the spies go and they come back to the people of Israel and they have these evil reports about the land, it's like they're breaking the relationship between people and land. We have a relationship with family and we have a relationship with land, and when we bring דבה about this land, what we're saying is: Hey, God, You promised this to us? No, no, no, no. There is a problem with this relationship. There is a breakdown here. It's devastating. 

Beth: Oh, one other parallel to add to the mix. We didn't even get into this. How many bad guys are there in the story of the sin of the spies?

Rivky: Oh, my God, you're right. Very cool. I was thinking this before and I thought we'd get there. The sin of the spies has ten bad guys. I want to almost say that one neutral-ish guy, right, who's Joshua – who's maybe a little bit quiet, but definitely is not one of the bad guys – and then Caleb is the one who really stands up, is the one who really stands up against these ten and says: No, no, no, no, guys, you don't understand. This is totally doable. Hey, everyone else, entire nation, we got this, we got this.

Also, in the story of the sale of Joseph there also seem to be ten bad guys of the twelve brothers. There are twelve brothers, but obviously Joseph isn't one of the bad guys. Joseph is the victim, right? Joseph is the one who is sold. And Benjamin, we have this fundamental assumption that Benjamin was basically too young and was not part of the sale of Joseph in any way. He wasn't there. Plus, you know, it makes sense. Benjamin and Joseph are "full" quote-unquote brothers. They share a mother. What's interesting, though, is also the contrast. We’ve got to explore this. It's pretty interesting to think that Caleb, who's sort of the hero of the spy story, Caleb is from the tribe of Judah.

Beth: And who's Judah in the sale of Joseph story?

Rivky: Judah is the one who says to his brothers, לְכוּ וְנִמְכְּרֶנּוּ לַיִּשְׁמְעֵאלִים – come, let's sell him to the Ishmaelites (Genesis 37:27). Let's not kill him. What's the point of that? Let's do something smarter. Let's actually sell him. Let's make a little money. Let's make a little profit about it. 

What is interesting, though, is that now, in Shelach, it's Caleb, from the tribe of Judah, who is the leader of Leah's children, standing up with Joshua, who is from the tribe of Ephraim, from Joseph. So we have now, we have Joseph, we have the son of Joseph and we have the son of Judah standing up together, trying to help, trying to solve this.

There's something really, I don't know, it's so sad to think about what's about to come for the people of Israel, but there's something redemptive about that, just that. It gives us a glimmer of hope of repairing this devastation.

Beth: They're saying: We're not going to speak דבה this time. דבה set us off all those generations ago. This time we're going to stand together. It's not going to be brother against brother. It's not going to be me, Judah, casting you, Joseph, into a pit and selling you to make a little bit of extra money. This time we're going to stand up.

Rivky: Unfortunately, though, there is דבה, right? 

Beth: But maybe we're missing something. We think about the story of the spies as being so tragic. You know, the spies did this terrible thing. God comes in with this egregious punishment. But it just makes me wonder … Maybe there's something a lot more hopeful in this story. Maybe the point here is that you could have had all twelve of b’nei Yisrael engaging in דבה.

All those years ago, Joseph started out with the דבה. B’nei Yisrael, they committed this terrible sin. You could have had all of the representatives of the tribes on board. What would God have done then? If Caleb and Joshua hadn't stood up against the דבה, what would the punishment have been? It would have been a lot worse than 40 years in the desert. Maybe God would have thrown His hands up right then and said: That's it! That's the end of the Torah. That's the end of the journey. But because they stood up...

Rivky: So you think maybe the son of Judah and the son of Joseph standing up together gave God this sense of: Okay, you know what, it's not irredeemable. Something can come of this. Because look, we fixed this part. Right? There are still issues, but we fixed this part.

Beth: I don't need another 400 years. I don't need another four generations. I need one more generation, with these two people as the  foundation that are going to seed the next generation. I need my next generation, the generation that enters the Land, to be the Judahs and the Josephs. The people who stand against דבה. The brothers who stand together.

Rivky: Beth, that is really, really, really cool. That is really cool. Thank you so, so much for showing this because this was incredibly interesting. Very cool.

Imu: Wow, I hope you really found that as fun to listen to as I did. You may have noticed that unlike other Aleph Beta presentations, Beth and Rivky aren’t making one clear argument about what the meaning of these parallels are. And that’s okay. Beth actually was in the early stages of research when she presented this to Rivky. So what you’re hearing is a lot of evidence. Things that are for sure there in the text, but the takeaways, the meaning, are sort of still in a speculative stage. What we do here at Aleph Beta is spend many, many, many more hours charting the parallels, noticing where they’re the same, where they’re a little bit different. Both the story of the spies and the story of Joseph have ten “bad guys” and two “good guys,” but they are not the same people in both stories. Judah’s role changes. What are we to make of that? There are many other changes between the two stories. So what we typically do is chart them, we notice them, and from the similarities and differences, theories emerge as to the meaning of these two stories. 

I’m going to hold off on giving you a meaningful takeaway here. Because the truth is that Rabbi Fohrman and I picked up on these parallels that Beth had shown Rivky. We took it in our own direction for a Tisha B’av video, which is available on our site at alephbeta.org. But instead I kind of want you to take Beth’s direction at the end and to meditate on these parallels. Explore them for yourselves. See what else you can find. And ask yourself the question: Why, in telling us the story of the spies, does the Torah want you to be thinking about the sale of Joseph? The Torah, as we say, is a commentary on itself. What do you think that commentary is telling us? As always, we’re curious and eager to hear your thoughts. If you want to share them with us, send us an email at info@alephbeta.org. We can’t wait to see what you come up with.  

Credits:

This episode was recorded by Beth Lesch and Rivky Stern. 

When this episode originally aired on Aleph Beta, it was edited by Rivky Stern. 

Into the Verse editing was done by Beth Lesch.

Our audio editor is Hillary Guttman. 

Our CEO and editorial director is Imu Shalev. 

Thank you so much for listening.