Tikva Hecht: Welcome to Into the Verse, where we share new and unexpected insights about the parsha … diving deep into the verses to uncover the Torah’s own commentary on itself.

I’m Tikva Hecht, a scholar here at Aleph Beta.

 In today's episode, we're going to be talking about a very puzzling topic from this week's Torah portion: the biblical disease, tzara'at. I know, a deep dive into a biblical disease... maybe this is the week to skip the podcast. But when I took a closer look at tzara'at, I discovered that this condition which feels so unrelatable and even a little off-putting may actually have a relevant and even inspiring message for us, so I hope you'll decide to stick around and listen in to a conversation I had with my colleague Adina Blaustein. Let's jump in.

How Can We Understand Tzara'at?

Tikva: Hi Adina. So we're going to be talking about tzara'at. A lot of Tazria-Metzora is about these meticulous laws regarding this condition. But not only are there a lot of details, but this is a really difficult topic to relate to because it's hard to even wrap our minds around what we're talking about. What is tzara'at? So it seems to be some kind of affliction that can show up on bodies, but also on objects and even houses... 

Adina Blaustein: That part always just drove me wild and just made me think this is the craziest thing ever -that you could have tzara’at on your house!

Tikva: That's the crazy part?! Adina, I don't think you're paying attention. I don't think you're reading closely…

Adina: I guess so!

Tikva: Because there is a lot in here that is very strange. It's one of those things that's amazingly both very, very weird and very, very boring. Because it's just a lot of laws. There are a lot of laws about how to identify tzara’at. A lot of laws about what you do when you have it.

Adina: This seems so foreign to our way of life And so we don't have a context and a language to describe it. We can't even come up with a good English translation of the word tzara’at.

Tikva: Right. So we normally use leprosy, but it's not really leprosy. It's something completely different. It seems to have a spiritual component as well. You have to go to the kohen (priest) to identify it. And you could say ok, ancient culture, they went to the priest. But we don't have that in the Torah. We don't have, - you have a cold, go to the kohen, or you have a sore throat, go to the kohen. We only have tzara'at, go to the kohen.

Adina: You're saying it's a spiritual affliction,  I get that.  But it's not like there seems to be any any offense against God that was committed in the text of Tazria-Metzora that would cause this. When I was growing up they said it’s lashon hara (slanderous speech). Lashon hara doesn't appear in Tazria-Metzora.

Tikva: Yes, it's interesting. In Tazria-Metzora,  you have a lot of concentration on the law. You don't have a lot of concentration on the meaning of any of these pieces of the ritual.  And there's another piece to it that I think is very strange, which is you have the physical affliction, which itself seems very harsh. If it is a punishment, it's still a very harsh one. But then there's also a social affliction because what happens when you get diagnosed, with tzara’at, you then have to separate from the community and be in isolation. So it seems almost like social shaming. It's like God is physically shaming you and then we respond to that by socially shaming you.

Adina: Yes.  I mean you're imagining this poor guy or this poor girl.  Everybody sees that person leave the gates of the city. And as you enter and exit the camp or the city you're seeing that person there, excommunicated. 

Tikva: And if you think about someone who's sick and then saying to them, you're going to be feeling vulnerable. Your body,  I don't know if it hurts,  but at least your body's not going to be what you expect it to be.  And now we're going to isolate you -  in the very time that you would imagine you might need comfort or need other people. Now now you're going to be isolated.

Two Stages of Separation: Camp and Tent

Tikva: I want to share a research journey with you that I had that I think might begin to give us some way of understanding tzara'at. And it actually gets into it through one of these meticulous little laws.  So I want to bring you into Leviticus Chapter 14, verse 8. 

Adina: Okay

Tikva: It's describing the process. Once someone who has tzara’at is now healed. The kohen has gone to see them. They see that the condition has disappeared and now they're going to enter into a purification process. And there are a number of things they have to do.  They are washing their clothes,  they are cutting their hair,  they are washing in water. They are now purified And then we are told that after this: 

…יָבוֹא אֶל־הַמַּחֲנֶה וְיָשַׁב מִחוּץ לְאׇהֳלוֹ שִׁבְעַת יָמִים 

After that, the camp may be entered but one must remain outside one’s tent seven days (Leviticus 14:8)

So we have this strange kind of double isolation going on, or this strange kind of liminal state of isolation where they are now back but they are not allowed back into their tent.

Adina: So they are inside the camp but everybody sees them with their sleeping bag right outside their tent.

Tikva: So that's what it seems to be right That's literally what it seems to be

Adina: It’s so strange. And truthfully, I’ve always conflated those two. Like I've read these verses, and I've been in shul when they are read aloud and I've always just thought “oh yeah yeah, they leave the camp.”

Tikva: Right. That’s what you would think… That they are kind of almost the same thing. Chazal (sages) actually interprets it as that they're outside their tent,  meaning that during this period of time, they can't be with their spouse. And what's interesting is Chazal base their interpretation of this verse on another verse of similar language where we have someone who is allowed to go back to their tent. I want to look at that with you because I think that Chazal are actually giving us a clue into a deeper meaning of tzara’at through this connection that they're making. 

And this is based on a verse in Devarim (Deuteronomy). So Devarim 5 brings us to the story of Matan Torah (revelation at Sinai). This is where Moshe is recapping the story of Matan Torah for the people before they go into the land and he's reminding them what happened there. And he's reminding them of this tragic moment where revelation begins they hear God's voice. It's this opportunity to speak face-to-face with God. But the people actually reject that and they get scared and they say that they're afraid that they're going to die and they go to Moshe and they say to him can you go and receive this revelation for us, you go talk to God, you hear what he has to say and then you come and you tell us.  God hears and steps in and says, you know what,  this plan is ok. He seems to approve of it,  just on a pshat  level just on a simple level. And He says to Moshe to tell the people to go back to their tents. And that's the proof text that the Gemara brings.  He says: 

לֵךְ אֱמֹר לָהֶם שׁוּבוּ לָכֶם לְאׇהֳלֵיכֶם…וְאַתָּה פֹּה עֲמֹד עִמָּדִי 

Go, say to them, ‘Return to your tents…But you remain here with Me (Deuteronomy 5:27-28)

Adina: It's such a euphemism. Ohel (tent) is  like a metonomy for the marriage, the physical relationship of marriage. 

Tikva: Right. Although I do think it's funny. How do you know, ohel (tent) means intimacy because over here we have the exact same euphemism! It's just referring us to another case of the euphemism. 

Adina: Right. It’s a little bit of a circular logic.

Tikva: We actually do have more to go on. Because if you think about this story in Devarim, it's a summary of the story that actually took place in Shemot. In Exodus we’re told explicitly that when they're preparing for Har Sinai,  for three days: 

אַל־תִּגְּשׁוּ אֶל־אִשָּׁה

You should not go near a woman. (Exodus 19: 15)

 so that's I think what Chazal actually has in mind. 

Adina: Yes. For sure. I think that context really helps you appreciate this line. 

Tikva : [INSERT] Just to clarify, although Chazal’s interpretation of tent as representing intimacy seemed to come out of nowhere in Devarim when we looked at Exodus we saw that the Israelites were told to separate from their spouses in preparation for the revelation at Sinai. So when the show is over, and God tells everyone to “return to their tents,” it makes a lot of sense to assume that means “return to your spousal relationships.” And when this same euphemism shows up in Vayikra, in the case of the metzora (one afflicted with tzara’at), we can now assume it means the same thing. So that was one mystery solved. But once I saw Chazal's connection between these two episodes of separation, it got me wondering. Is it just a coincidence that both these sections of the Torah involve leaving and re-entering the tent, or are Chazal picking up on something deeper? That got me to take a closer look at Exodus and I noticed another layer of connection. In Vayikra, we saw that the metzora has two stages of separation. In the first stage, while they actually have active tzara’at, they separate from the camp. But in the second stage, during the purification process, they enter the camp but stay outside their tents. Well, it turns out, in Matan Torah, we have both these stages as well. The people begin their preparations for Sinai by separating from their spouses, i.e. leaving their tents. But just a few verses later in Exodus, when the event really begins, look at what we're told:

Tikva: And now the actual event is going to start, and how does this event start? 

וַיּוֹצֵא מֹשֶׁה אֶת־הָעָם לִקְרַאת הָאֱלֹהִים מִן־הַמַּחֲנֶה 

Moses led the people out of the camp toward God (Exodus 19:17)

So they exit the camp. So you actually have two stages of separation in Matan Torah too. They leave their tent to prepare for Matan Torah. And then the actual experience happens outside the camp. So it's the same structure we see in tzara’at, but inverted.

Adina: Yes, I see the two stages. Right. So in Matan Torah they first just separated from their spouses, but they're still in the machane (camp). They're just separate. And then, after three days,  then they actually all collectively leave the machane.  And then in tzara’at, first you leave the machane and then when you come back to the machane you're just outside your ohel. You're outside your tent.

Tikva: Exactly. So I think it’s very intriguing. 

Could Tzara'at and Matan Torah Be Related?

Tikva: So it's…I think it’s very intriguing to say wait a second, is there some connection between the experience of Matan Torah and the experience of the metzora? They seem like opposites. They seem like complete opposites. 

Adina: Yes. Like aside from this, including this little tidbit about separating,  there doesn't seem to be anything else linking these two experiences. 

Tikva: Right. And not only that but if we think of Sinai,  we would probably think of it as the greatest gift, a chance at incredible spiritual elevation. When we think of tzara'at we think of it like we were talking about before. It seems like a punishment. The isolation seems like a diminished status.

Adina: I kind of wonder, our associations with it with a terrible  horrible disease of leprosy. That's how  we've all grown up hearing it being translated,  even though it, tzara'at seems like the worst possible thing that could actually happen to you…and Matan Torah kind of seems like the best possible … I mean to have a revelation from God and to have that kind of clarity moving forward with your life seems like completely opposite.

Tikva: It's very strange that they would be connected. And I think not only that but even if you just think about the way this idea of isolation and in either case what is isolation doing in the case of Matan Torah? It's not exactly isolation. It's not that the people are alone,  they're doing it as a group but they're leaving their homes. We have to go outside of the house to have a group collective revelation. Why do they have to go outside the camp? This idea of leaving the community or leaving the the regular domain and going into a separate area - what does that add to Matan Torah? Why was it outside the camp and with the tzara'at, what does the isolation add? I mean in that case it's a much more intense isolation. So I think we have questions just about this detail of both events and then how these two events speak to each other. 

The Missing Link: Numbers 12

Tikva: So when I saw this,  I thought, okay great. This is so exciting.  I'm going to open up Vayikra,  I'm gonna open up Devarim and Shemot, both two different versions of the same story And I'm going find tons of connections right?

Adina: Right. Because that’s how it works at Aleph Beta! Because when you have a thematic connection, you just open up a chapter and everything becomes clear!

Tikva: Yes. The highlights just jump off the page….

Adina: So a chiastic structure didn't just jump out at you?

Tikva: Adina,  nothing jumped out at me.  A few words here and there.  There are some keywords and I think if anyone wants to take a look there are some very interesting words here and there that show up in both places. But it was a dead end. And then I remembered something.

Adina: What did you remember?

Tikva: What's the one story in chumash where someone has tzara’at as an affliction? Because Moshe gets tzara’at, it’s one of the signs at the burning bush.  Let’s put that aside. 

Adina: Yes. So it's the story of Numbers chapter 12, Bamidbar.  The general context is they're traveling through the wilderness. Their next stop is Israel - the land of Canaan and  it’s starting to get tough. People complain for meat. They're starting to get frustrated with Moshe. Things are getting tough adminst all this we have chapter 12, where bizarrely without context Moshe seems to have married an Isha Kushite, who Chazal identify as Tzipora, who is Moshe's named wife from earlier narratives. And Miriam and Aaron have this little chat about it. It's very clear that God sees it very negatively and sees it as an attack against Moshe and it concludes after a very scary revelation where God reveals himself to Miriam and castigates them, at the end of the chapter Miriam gets tzara’at, Aaron prays on her behalf and she has to leave the camp encampment for seven days then she's able to return and they continue on their journey. 

Tikva: Right. So that's our one story.  It's Miriam getting tzara'at after speaking lashon hara about Moshe. And this is one of the main sources for why we associate tzara’at with lashon hara. 

Adina: Exactly. Becuase she spoke lashon hara, tzara’at is the punishment for speaking lashon hara.

Tikva: Right.  So isn't it interesting that what is her lashon hara ?  This thing about the Kushite  woman. You're saying it's very hard to understand that, but then she seems to make this other statement and this seems to be what really bothers God. This is what God responds to. 

Tikva: And she says, 

הֲרַק אַךְ־בְּמֹשֶׁה דִּבֶּר יְקוק הֲלֹא גַּם־בָּנוּ דִבֵּר?

Does God only speak with Moshe? Doesn't He also speak with us? (Numbers  12 :2)

Adina: I've taught this story so many times, as a high school teacher. And it's so funny because that gap, that massive gap between Pasuk Alef and Pasuk Bet (verses 1 and 2). The Parshanut,  the various medieval commentaries the way they're trying to fill that gap is just so interesting and so creative.

Tikva: What's the classic way of filling that gap? What's Rashi's way of filling that gap? 

Adina: So Rashi's explanation is fascinating. Because he connects it back to the story of Har Sinai. According to Rashi's explanation, and he’s quoting Chazal, Miriam, and Aaron are basically questioning Moshe. Because they're not talking about Moshe getting married,  they're talking about Moshe getting divorced and they're basically saying Moshe and Tzipora have gotten divorced.  It seems like the reason that Moshe is saying or that Tzipora is saying Moshe divorced her,  is because he needs to focus on being a prophet. He needs to be holy for God, somehow he needs to be celibate. Miriam and Aaron are basically saying, “hold up,  we are also prophets and yet we are still married.”  It's so fascinating because it seems to be kind of questioning, “ why were we allowed to back to our tents? Maybe we shouldn't have?  Does Moshe think he's better than us?”

Tikva: But I think what's really fascinating is Rashi is drawing our attention to this connection in Devarim and particularly to this idea of leaving the tent and the separation. So I don't want to lean too much into Chazal,  but I do want to show that they're seeing a connection that we are seeing.

Connections between Numbers and Deuteronomy

Tikva [Insert] So not only is the Miriam story in Numbers related thematically to tzara'at -- because, you know, she had the condition -- but it also seems to be related to the story of Matan Torah. At least, Chazal seem to make that connection. They seem to once again be hinting to us -- hey, Matan Torah and tzara'at, those two go together. But the question was still why? Were Chazal seeing something we were missing? Once again, we took a step back to see if there were any other textual connections. This time, between Miriam's story in Numbers and the stories of Matan Torah in Deuteronomy and Exodus. And this time -- there was a lot more to go on.

Tikva: If we're thinking,  how is this story in Numbers  Chapter 12 similar to Deuternomy Chapter 5, I think on a really simple level,  there's a language connection. Like we were talking about how tzara’at is connected to lashon hara. The great offense Miriam does here is lashon hara. You think about Matot Torah,  how would you describe Matan Torah, just the simplest way of describing it,  what happened there? 

Adina: It's a little chat. Except the people chatting, God meant it to be directly to the people but it ends up being Moshe basically repeating what he heard. Moshe is like, tattling, it’s lashon hara.

Tikva: So it's really funny in a way it seems to be lashon hara. Again it's funny it's the same thing. These things seem like the same things , and they also seem like the opposite. You have this powerful powerful speech act of God speaking.  This revelation from God and then somehow this speech that gets communicated through a trickle-down effect. It has some kind of something structural to the lashon hara that we see in Numbers Chapter 12, which is also a really powerful speech.  It's really powerful when someone speaks lashon hara, clearly, it got God's attention.  And yet at the same time, I think our gut says wait a second. These are opposite things. What God is saying at Matan Torah is the deepest possible truth,  that's what revelation is.  It's this incredible honest communication with God that has to be the most valuable language.  In the case here in Numbers 12, we have this language that is harmful, it seems corrupt and damaging and very very negative. So that's the first thing I want to draw your attention to.  It's powerful language but both positive and negative. 

Adina: It just draws your attention to a truth that we know but is actually so hard to practice, which is direct and honest communication with people. In a sense,  if you have the bravery and the courage to look someone in the eye and to speak honestly, that's Sinai in a way. 

Tikva: I think you're right. Where your instinct is going is that there's something very very powerful and potentially scary about this language. And if we go back to Devarim Chapter 5, that is what the people are saying, they’re scared.  I want you to look very carefully at the language of how they describe their fear. So this is Devarim chapter 5, verses 22 and 23. 

וְעַתָּה לָמָּה נָמוּת כִּי תֹאכְלֵנוּ הָאֵשׁ הַגְּדֹלָה הַזֹּאת אִם־יֹסְפִים  אֲנַחְנוּ לִשְׁמֹעַ אֶת־קוֹל יקוק אֱלֹקינוּ עוֹד וָמָתְנוּ׃ 

Let us not die, then, for this fearsome fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of our God any longer, we shall die. 

כִּי מִי כׇל־בָּשָׂר אֲשֶׁר שָׁמַע קוֹל אֱלֹקים חַיִּים מְדַבֵּר מִתּוֹךְ־הָאֵשׁ כָּמֹנוּ וַיֶּחִי׃ 

For what mortal ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the fire, as we did, and lived?

Adina: The assumption that they're clearly saying is we're gonna die. Okay. So the words popping out at me in what they say, the fire's gonna consume us. And then “כִּי מִי כׇל־בָּשָׂר אֲשֶׁר שָׁמַע קוֹל אֱלֹקים,”  is a weird way of saying it.  “כִּי תֹאכְלֵנוּ הָאֵשׁ,” the fire consuming us, like the word “אכל,” not only means eat,  but in this kind of piel version means to consume. But basar means flesh.  I would've expected adam  - mankind. 

Tikva: So their fear is that they're going to die. They have this graphic kind of description of this event. What they imagine is they're gonna get consumed by the fire. And I think the basar kind of evokes again that that imagery. It's very graphic. And it really evokes vulnerability. So let's go back to Numbers and when Aaaron is praying. He describes tzara’at and he describes it in this graphic way. 

Adina: He continues in verse 12,

אַל־נָא תְהִי כַּמֵּת אֲשֶׁר בְּצֵאתוֹ מֵרֶחֶם אִמּוֹ וַיֵּאָכֵל חֲצִי בְשָׂרוֹ׃

Let her not be like a stillbirth which emerges from its mother’s womb with half its flesh eaten away!”

Adina: This very powerful image of a baby who,  as the baby's being born, you realize immediately that this baby is not going to survive. It's clearly such a horrible tragic image Aaaron saying that's what Miriam is. You definitely see those three words that you pointed out from Devarim. 

Tikva: Flesh, consumption, and death. We have both of these experiences that are not on the surface actual death experiences.  There is not any death. These are not actually cases where someone is dying but they both seem to have some kind of experiences they both seem experientially to be near death, and not just near death, but near this very very graphic destruction of your flesh. Almost like the self is annihilated in these experiences

Isolation, Language and Death

Tikva: I just want to stop for a second because I think we're now seeing three themes that tzara’at and Matan Torah have in common. right we started off looking at isolation, two layers of isolation. They both have connection to powerful speech. 

Adina: Well one second. The the section of tzara’at from Leviticus and the revelation of Sinai have that inversion of separation from the tent and then from the camp. The powerful speech is the story from the book of Numbers and the story of Sinai has the idea of speech commanding a certain power and consequence. 

Tikva: I think if we're starting to put together a story of tzara’at,  it seems that the Torah is telling us that tzara'at starts with this very very powerful speech event,  lashon hara. And then you have the experience of tzara’at.  If you think about the process that's described there,  it actually begins with a speech act as well. Tzara’at  it's not like you have an affliction, you wake up one day and like you have a sore throat and now you're going back to bed right? Tzara’at has to be confirmed by a kohen.  It’s interesting about the laws there is that the kohen is not acting like a doctor, it’s not that he’s an expert telling you yes or no. There seems to be a speech act involved. If the kohen doesn't declare that you have tzara’at you're not a metzora, you don't have the status of this person. I think you're right, there actually seems to be two levels of this speech act. One of them is the lashon hara, it seems to be the cause of it. But then in the process itself when we get to Vayikra and we sort of out of the narrative and we're into the law,  there still seems to be a speech act that's very prominent. So speech is some way seems thematically paramount and central to tzara'at. It’s clearly central to Matan Torah. Isolation is a part of both of these stories or processes and now we're seeing that somehow a deathlike experience seems to be part of it as well. 

Again,  I think we have this question of some way they seem to be parallel in some way They seem to be inverted. Is tzara’at an inverted Matan Torah? What would that even mean? And what are we learning anyways about tzara’at or Matan Torah from any of this?  So I don't think we have more answers We actually just got more questions. 

Moshe's Distinction

Tikva: Okay I want to make a promise to you that we're going to get more answers by looking more closely at these stories because there are actually more connections,  there are more narrative connections that we talked about. But I want to warn you there's gonna be again more questions before we get to answers.  I think something we already pointed out is that both stories seem to have this theme of Moshe’s distinctiveness, right? In Devarim you have the people at Har Sinai. And they're afraid they're gonna die. So they they have this great plan or they have this great realization that, you know, what Moshe can handle this.  We can't.  Let's make a distinction between us and and him. And this plan, this idea seems to be approved by God. God seems to say,  yeah that's a good idea. You're right Moshe is different You guys go back to the tent.

Adina: It’s so funny and so ironic. You have to have that story in your head because, it's in  Numbers,  in exactly the story right before this, Chapter 11 and this story to some extent where you see them start rejecting and regretting that plan. Because Numbers Chapter 11 is when they're like…Moshe you're not a very good leader. And there's really a  rebellion against his leadership. In this story in the national sense.  And this story is a story of even his own family kind of saying, “you think you're special?”

Tikva: Exactly. Here in Numbers we have Miriam.  She's equating herself with Moshe and notice what God says when he gets angry with her. He actually references fear as well.

Adina: Yes. That's exactly that's exactly the verse I thought we were going to study next. God is basically emphasizing just how distinct Moshe is, “ בְּכׇל־בֵּיתִי נֶאֱמָן הוּא,” he's the most trusted in all my household.  “פֶּה אֶל־פֶּה אֲדַבֶּר־בּוֹ,” I speak to him mouth to mouth, “וּמַרְאֶה וְלֹא בְחִידֹת,” He has a clear vision not in riddles.  “ וּתְמֻנַת יקוק יַבִּיט,” he sees the very picture of God. “וּמַדּוּעַ לֹא יְרֵאתֶם לְדַבֵּר בְּעַבְדִּי בְמֹשֶׁה׃,” how could you not be afraid to speak of my servant Moshe.  And this idea of yirah (fear) is so prominent (Numbers 12: 6-8).

Tikva: in Devarim, God is approving of the people's fear. 

Adina: Yes.

Tikva: Here in Numbers, we have Miriam equating herself with Moshe.  Supposedly it seems like, let’s trust God. He seems to know what he's talking about.  It's out of lack of fear and God is very disapproving. So it seems that we have this very simple parallel, right? The people have fear. They make a distinction between themselves and Moshe, God gives them  His approval. And here we have a story where Miriam doesn't have fear. She's not making this distinction and they don't have God's approval. And if we just go with that,  it seems like okay great. And tzara’at is when you don't idealize Moshe.  Matan Torah is when you do. Something those lines, right?  But I think we have to say not so fast.  Because if you think about that story in Devarim.  Was it really a good thing that the people were doing ? God does seem to give it approval.

Adina: No don't think so. There's some tension. Because  I think Moshe seems to present it as semi a good thing.  But God says:

הֵיטִיבוּ כׇּל־אֲשֶׁר דִּבֵּרוּ׃

 they did well to speak thus. (Deuteronomy 5:25)

Adina: But then it concludes with Hashem basically turning to Moshe in verse 28 and saying all right…  you realize what this means. Basically, I have to now tell you everything and then you have to impart it to them. 

Tikva: It’s very very hard to accept that l’chatchila, in the first place, God set up Har Sinai with an expectation…

Adina: That Moshe would be the go-between. 

Tikva: it's just heartbreaking just as a reader to hear the people reject revelation. Would you reject revelation?  I mean would you might! But we want to say we wouldn’t. The sense of reading the story is this can't be what God intended. This can't be the best thing this can't be the best option. This is so sad. I just wanna point out one more piece in terms of Miriam. Because we asked this question.  We kind of went back and forth. Well were the people really acting so great in Devarim?   Was it a good thing or a bad thing to be afraid? 

Adina: Was it a good thing or a bad thing that Moshe kind of accepted what they were saying?

Tikva: but what about Miriam? In Numbers, Miriam is the bad guy here.  She gets just brutally called out by God.  God says it's like he's spat in her face. 

Adina: God says “I’m spitting in her face”, basically. 

Tikva: But let's just play out the connections that we're seeing.  I think we've already established this connection seeing these stories.  So let's think about the cast of characters. Who is Miriam in the Matan Torah story? Who is the person who has the deathlike experience? Who follows through and has a deathlike experience and who then goes into isolation experiences and isolation from the rest of the camp? 

Adina: That's Moshe. 

Tikva: It's Moshe, Miriam lines up with Moshe.  So it's almost like,  and this is what I think we've been getting to with all these connections between tzara'at and Matan Torah but I just think it's sort of powerful,  to see it actually lines up even with this character in the story. Miriam in some way is the Moshe character. She's not the people. Somehow she seems to be having some experience that is on some level like the experience Moshe had at Matan Torah.

Matan Torah and Fear of Death

Tikva: We started off seeing one connection that there was isolation was a connection between Matan Torah and tzara'at.  Then we added language and we added death. And now we're actually seeing that fear is playing a prominent role in both of the stories in Numbers and in Devarim.  And also Moshe's specialness or whether or not Moshe is like or different than the rest of the people. So we actually now have five of these themes that are resonant between the two stories. Let's see if we can make sense of all of that and still and then get back to our original question of tzara'at. 

Tikva: [Insert] Seeing parallel after parallel between these two stories, it was time to start putting the pieces together. In order to do that, we focused on just one of our stories: Matan Torah, the revelation at Sinai, and on just one of the many themes we'd been discussing: the people's fear of death. Earlier, we'd talked about how heartbreaking it is to read about the people rejecting the experience at Sinai. But off the mic, Adina actually confessed something: she empathized with the Israelites at that moment. That she, too, might not have wanted to hear God directly. She might have walked away from Sinai. And that resonated with me. There's something about the people's fear that for both of us made sense. I now asked Adina to expand on that. What might have led the people to think they were going to die?

Adina: It sounds like more than the supernatural more than, seeing the thunder whatever that means. What scares them is very simple and plain in the pasuk,  which is God's voice. I can't help but think the most scary things sometimes are just difficult conversations. Hearing someone’s difficult truth being said to you directly. 

Tikva: There's something about this raw unfiltered exposure to truth and especially capital T truth that is…

Adina: Yes. Not couched in any politeness or framed obsequiously.

Tikva: It's incredibly both very very intimate and scary.  Like we have both of those reactions. And I think the experience when I think about it the kind of like part of that is the sense of something is changing right now. This is something I'm being told something that has the potential to actually affect me and change me. And what I thought I knew I don't know anymore. And that's what revelation was.  Even if it wasn't necessarily every piece of information was new. It's not about the information. But it's about that confrontation with God. And their whole just their worldview,  but their sense of what reality is must have changed. Everything that they thought they knew about the world and about themselves is now different.

Adina: Right More than right the splitting of the sea. More than plagues. This is not just another supernatural thing. Right. They've witnessed miracles at this point. Many.  This is the intimacy of God's voice. 

Tikva: This is life-changing. You think about what it means like it's a cliche to say : “oh it's life-changing.” But what life-changing means is that you change. Which means who you were before is not who you are afterward. 

Adina: And that is kind of what they’re rejecting,  and that’s what they’re…it seems like they're rejecting when they say we’re gonna die, I don’t wanna die.

Tikva: There is a certain death that is happening in this experience. And I think that's part of what scares us, right? When we have those difficult conversations.  There's death and there is violence in these incredible revelations and in these moments that are either difficult truths or just being blown away by something that totally alters your reality. And I think that part of the fear there is that can you accept that death? Because what's happening is your old identity is going be shattered. Your old identity is something you now have to give up. There's an unknown in that you don't even know yourself in a way.

Tikva: I just want to show you a verse. I want to go back to Shemot, into chapter 20, verse 17. While I was working through this, it gave me a kind of a different view on this.

Adina: This is right after the 10 Commandments in Shemot everybody saw the fire and the thunder and the lightning. And then they turn to Moshe in verse 16, and they say, another version of what we wrote about in Devarim: 

דַּבֵּר־אַתָּה עִמָּנוּ וְנִשְׁמָעָה וְאַל־יְדַבֵּר עִמָּנוּ אֱלֹקים פֶּן־נָמוּת׃ וַיֹּאמֶר מֹשֶׁה אֶל־הָעָם אַל־תִּירָאוּ כִּי לְבַעֲבוּר נַסּוֹת אֶתְכֶם בָּא הָאֱלֹקים וּבַעֲבוּר תִּהְיֶה יִרְאָתוֹ עַל־פְּנֵיכֶם לְבִלְתִּי תֶחֱטָאוּ׃

You speak to us,” they said to Moses, “and we will obey; but let not God speak to us, lest we die. Moses answered the people, “Be not afraid; for God has come only in order to test you, and in order that the fear of God may be ever with you so that you do not go astray.” (Exodus 19: 16-17)

Tikva: So it's such a funny verse because he said, oh, don't, be afraid. God just came to scare you!  Why are you running away from the robber, he's just there to rob you!  It's very funny,  but I think we intuitively often read this verse with some sense of there are different levels of fear. There's fear and there's awe. But reading it through the lens of the conversation we've been having what I think it's alluding to is, there are fears that, it's your emotions telling you to run the other way right. If there's a bear and you're scared run the other way. But there are fears that you are actually supposed to face. 

Tikva: Let's go back to Numbers now. And I want to think about how this relates. So we have an understanding of the people's fear. It's the fear that comes from facing the truth and giving up a sense of your own identity.  So now in Numbers, God was upset with Miriam for not being afraid and he gives her a deathlike experience. In Devarim, they're afraid of this Deathlike experience. And now here he's saying you're not afraid,  I'm gonna give you a deathlike experience. And I think that if the connection we are seeing really stands,  then this fear and this deathlike experience should line up in some way. So I want to kind of play with that with you, see if that is there. If Miriam is supposed to be afraid of some kind of revelation, the implication would be,  if she's not afraid,  then she's not experiencing this revelation. So she's missing that confrontation with truth that the people are experiencing. 

Adina: Well, God reveals himself to them and criticizes them. That is not the revelation moment?

Tikva: So I think in a way it is.  But what is he revealing?  I  don't think in this case it's like Matan Torah where it's just the big reveal of God.

Adina: Hashem is revealing Moshe's special status as a prophet.

Tikva: Okay But he's upset with her for not knowing that So if all that was happening with Miriam was unaware that Moshe had a distinct status and then God decided he was going to reveal himself to Miriam and corrected that misperception,  then I don't think he would be upset. He's upset that she wasn't already afraid beforehand. He's upset that she's not facing some kind of truth.

Adina: Oh. I get it. That makes sense. It’s like she experience Sinai but wasn’t even there. Like were you not at Sinai. Did you not see all of that?  Don't you remember that you didn't want to go up the mountain and you guys all went to Moshe, and were like… no no no Moshe you go we're too afraid. And it's like you're pretending that none of that happens

Tikva: Yeah but in her speech she's denying reality. She's denying a part of her own history that you would think would be important to this conversation, which is what happened at Matan Torah. This is the story that Miriam seems to be avoiding or intentionally forgetting and God is mad at her for not facing this reality. What might it have been like for Miriam at Har Sinai?  Right So one option is she was part of the people, she got scared and she didn't want to go up.  And so what's happening now? She's rewriting that narrative and she's somehow saying no, we talked to God the same way…

Adina: In a way that's more charitable to her to herself.

Tikva: ….just being charitable herself and saying oh yeah I got scared that one time but it wasn't a big deal. Or she's saying the other possibility is, we just have this collective voice of the people saying “We're too scared.”   But Maybe not every individual would've made that same choice. Maybe Miriam, if she were by herself, would've gone off the mountain. Maybe she's saying….you know  I could have been Moshe. I had the same potential. I talked to God But  I was part of the collective I was part of the people.  I had to go with them. I lost this opportunity. And I think that's a very heartbreaking read.  It's a heartbreaking possibility These are all speculations. We don't know what Maron's experience was. 

Adina: Right. The way I've always read verse two,  when Miriam and Aaron say, “הֲלֹא גַּם־בָּנוּ דִבֵּר, Has [God] not spoken through us as well?”  (Numbers 12:2). I've always read it that Miriam and Aaron are distinct from the people and they are prophets. And now I'm kind of seeing,  anybody from Bnei Yisrael could have said that. Anyone could have said… “maybe I could have been a Moshe or I could have been a prophet.” And mourning, with a little bit of envy tied into it that missed opportunity for that communion with God.

Tikva: this is what seems to be the hard truth in her life that she can't face. And her defense mechanism seems to be this kind of ego coming in when she's diminishing in a way the very value of speaking to God.  She seems to be diminishing Moshe. She seems to need to hold onto some image of herself as valuable as Moshe. And that's where the lashon hara is coming from. Interestingly we were talking before about death- likeness of revelation is you give up one identity in order to step into a new identity. And it seems that Miriam here is holding on to this identity of herself as a prophet,  a prophet just as good as Moshe. And that seems to be her defense against this difficult reality that she can't face.

Tikva: so we're starting to see this deeper contrast with Sinai. The deathlike experience at Sinai is the ability to give up your hold on yourself, and to give up some identity and give up some ego in order to have a revelation, in order to hear God's words and have that transformative experience. And then here, the use of words , Miriam's use of words. She uses that same tool that same incredible really profound tool that we're gifted with in order to protect her ego and avoid the confrontation that would require her to have a transformative experience. And I think this can help us answer why God approves of the people in Devarim.  Because the people are in a sense also rejecting a revelation, but at least they're being honest about it. 

Adina: I think that that rings so true.  Let's say one person wants to turn to another and say “I love you.” And the response is not “I love you too,” but the response is “I'm not ready to hear that.”  And there's something so tragic about that but there's also something so genuinely honest about that. Because that vulnerability that one party has in sharing enables  the other party to just be honest about their intentions. The relationship can kind of move forward.  

Tikva: And what it does is  it creates a space for some kind of revelatory moment. So it's not the revelation they wanted.  I keep thinking of that Batman quote right. Like it's not the hero you deserve as a hero you need.

Adina: it's the hero you need. What a great line.

Tikva: It’s not the the revelation you deserve dor it's not the revelation that you wanted,  but it's the revelation that they needed. They did have a revelatory moment and they learned something about themselves. 

Adina: And I would say that’s why it just impresses upon me the need to then capture that revelation and remember it as accurately as possible. Because it wasn't the revelation that it was intended to be, you then have to keep remembering the reality and tell the story of that reality so that you can learn from it and grow from it. 

Tikva: Yes. And I think that's what's happening here in a sense,  is God comes in and He shakes her out of it. He's not going to let her get away with it. It's like he throws the revelation in her face and that's actually when it says that this is like God's spinning in her face.  If God spat in her face wouldn't she leave the camp? What's the spit in her face here?  I think on one level it's the reality itself. It's waking her up to what happened. 

Adina: God spitting in Miriam's face equates with what happened at Sinai. Which was essentially the people spitting in God's face. We are telling it in a more compassionate way about the people, but essentially it's a rejection to a certain extent.

Tikva: Well what's interesting is at Sinai we do have that language of panim -el - panim. that uh originally we're told that God talks to the people face-to-face. So it's a face-to-face experience. And in the end, Miriam also has a kind of face-to-face experience. Sometimes when someone can't face something, we try to be gentle and we try to be nice.  At some point, you just shake them and say you have to face it.  It's like you were saying sometimes that blunt honesty is the best way to go. And then and then they do have to die a little. And then they do have to mourn a little bit too.  And I think this is where the isolation comes in I think we can start to make sense of it. Because she has to face this new self.  It makes sense that she would be alone,  not even with God because that's where she's gonna be able to face herself. That isolation that stepping back, feels like it's giving her that face-to-face herself. It's maybe dislodging her from all of the roles and the assumptions and the fears. All of these pieces that add up to her ego that keep her locked in the narrative that she can't escape from,  I think that it's also a time to mourn.  If you look at the the laws of tzara’at there are a lot of rituals that are very similar to the laws of aveilut, the laws of mourning. And tractate Moed Katan,  the third chapter talks about this. It goes through a long list of ways that they're very similar. It seems that in some way the isolation period in tzara’at is a period of mourning. 

Adina: It’s a time of deep reflection, a time of deep introspection. You might naturally want to be alone but you're also meant to experience loneliness.

Tikva: And I wonder that is the combination of mourning for the lost self and also creating space for that new self is going to be.

Tikva: So now I think we're starting to see a lot more how revelation and tzara’at are actually two sides of the same coin.  There's this tension that seems to be at play in both of them between the ego and truth.  Between our old identities, which kind of build us up, and these confrontations with the truth which force us to become someone new and reassess who we are. And it seems that language is the tool in both of these stories. And I would say language is particularly key when we're creating our narratives.  It's the ways that we tell each other the truth, or the ways we hide the truth. 

Adina: The stories we tell…

Tikva: We have death and death in this reading becomes the ability to give up the old self or not. And then finally isolation seems to be like it seems to be the incubation material for both preparing for and responding to these earth-shadowing revelations. And so remember we saw that the process of Matan Torah and the process of tzara’at is sort of inverted but it seems like that's because the path in and the path out are the same.  And maybe they almost come around to each other. 

Adina: Okay. So in certain sense, tzara’at as a spiritual affliction,  is a form of revelation.  It seems like that is what you're saying.

Tikva: Yes. your body is changing. The kohen all of a sudden is telling you what your status is. You are confronted with a truth really outside of your control and then you're given time to face that, mourn it, and find a new self so you can hopefully come back a little braver. And that's what I'm bringing back to Tazria -Metzora.  Like if we come back to Vayikra, when we come back to this process, I think that if we look at the process of tzara’at, the way we were looking at it originally, it seems, to end back at the status quo. But once you see these connections to Matan Torah it doesn't end back at the status quo. It seems to back at the possibility of revelation. And it does seem to be an elevated status of openness that was not there before. And the possibilities that were not there before. So suddenly, it went from this shaming experience that at best comes back to the normal,  to something that is like you're saying actually, revelatory really. 

Conclusion

Tikva: After my conversation with Adina, I found myself thinking about two things. The first is that we started the conversation by talking about how harsh it seems that God would respond to any of our missteps with a physical ailment. Harming the body is such a vulnerable, personal strike. But now I see tzara'at in this new way, as God shaking us out of the narratives we tell to protect our egos, and forcing us to be vulnerable, to be more honest. And, you know, isn't this exactly what the body does for us sometimes? I know for me, there are lots of times, I try to preserve this image I have of myself as more capable, stronger, and kinder than I am. Maybe I take on a project that is more than I can really handle, or maybe I snap or say something insensitive. And I tell myself it's ok, it’s fine, it doesn’t matter. But my body always knows better. I get a headache, or a stomach ache, or just a sinking feeling in my gut. And I can try to ignore that too. But if I don't, if I take a minute, usually a minute to myself, to really listen to my body -- I have to say, a little begrudgingly, but gratefully, it's forces me to be honest. So in the end, this journey with Adina didn’t just show me how tzara’at was  meaningful, it's very, very relatable. 

So that's the first thing I was thinking about, but here's the second. Do you remember at the beginning of this episode, on our way into these connections between tzara'at and Matan Torah, was noticing that they both have two stages of isolation -- one from the machane, the camp, and one from the ohel, the tent. In my conversation with Adina, we suggested a way of understanding the function of isolation in the process of tzara'at and Matan Torah, but we didn't really return to the strange necessity for two different stages in each case. And I'll be honest with you -- it's still baffling me. I have a couple of guesses, maybe something about easing in and out of separation. Maybe something about the different spheres or types of intimacy affecting our egos. But, I don't know and I was wondering. What do you think? Leave us a voice note with your theory. There's a link in the description. I can't wait to hear your take. 

Credits

This episode was recorded by: Tikva Hecht together with Adina Blaustein. 

Editing was done by Ari Levisohn and Adina Blaustein.

Our audio editor is Hillary Guttman with additional audio edits by Shifra Jacobs.

Our senior editor is Ari Levisohn.