Ari Levisohn: Imagine God invites you on a walk. What are you picturing? Maybe you are floating through the heavens. Maybe it's around the block outside your house. Wherever you’re taking this stroll, you’re probably imagining you and God side by side. That’s how people walk together. Or maybe you imagine yourself walking behind Him, following His lead.

But what would it mean if He asked you to walk in front of Him? What does it mean to walk before God?

Well that’s exactly what God asked Abraham: הִתְהַלֵּךְ לְפָנַי — Walk before me (Genesis 17:1).

And in this week’s parsha, Jacob, on his deathbed, reflects about how Abraham and Isaac walked before God; הָאֱלֹקים אֲשֶׁר הִתְהַלְּכוּ אֲבֹתַי לְפָנָיו. (Genesis 48:15).

So what in the world does that mean?

Well, Beth Lesch has a theory to make sense of that phrase, and it really helps us explain the forefather’s relationship with God. In last year’s episode on Parshat Vaera, Beth presented that theory, and this year Rabbi Fohrman and Beth sat down to further explore the significance of Jacob's deathbed reflections in this week's parsha and how it sheds light on the entire book of Genesis. 

Just a word of context before I hand over the mic. Last year, Beth came to these ideas through a passage in Parshat Vaera where God tells Moses “I appeared to your forefathers by the name of Kel Shakai. My Name, Yud-Hey-and-Vav-Hey, was not yet known to them.” Beth’s theory was that this name of Kel Shakai somehow reflects the idea of walking before God. I’ll let them explain.

Rabbi David Fohrman: Hey folks, this is Rabbi David Fohrman. I am here with Beth Lesch. How are you?

Beth Lesch: I'm good, Rabbi Fohrman, how are you doing?

Rabbi Fohrman: Good, I'm doing fine. I wanted to chat with you today about a piece that you recorded for Aleph Beta. It was on Parshat Vaera and you were talking about the name Shakai that we sometimes associate with God, a mysterious name. Remember that piece?

Beth: I remember that piece. This is the one that I got some help from my friend Lisa, the animal scientist. Yeah, yeah, it was memorable for me too.

Rabbi Fohrman: Yeah, and I actually printed out the piece, and as I was sitting there on Shabbos reading it through, I wanted to tell you that I really liked it a lot, and I wanted to just ruminate with you about a possible extension of the piece. Not sure exactly where it goes, but I thought it would be interesting to just kind of talk about. 

Walking With God and Walking Before God

So just to summarize, you were trying to understand the quality of this particular name, Shakai, and how it differs from Yud-Hey-and-Vav-Hey. And God reveals Himself to Moshe and says, “Hey, from now on, I'm going to be acting like Yud-Hey-and-Vav-Hey, but I revealed Myself to the forefathers with this Name, Shakai.” And everyone sort of struggles to figure out what this Name is. Chazal (the Sages) have one interpretation, which I talked about in one of our videos, but you suggested a pretty straightforward interpretation. And you said that, you know, the first time that we find God ever revealing himself as Shakai is to Abraham in the context of the circumcision covenant, back in Genesis 17 or so. And basically there, God says that, “I am Shakai, and I have a job for you. And that job is:  הִתְהַלֵּךְ לְפָנַי וֶהְיֵה תָמִים — I want you to walk before me and to be whole.

And you pointed out that, you know, this isn't the first time that we've had people walking with God. There are examples ranging from Adam almost walking with God, to Chanoch, to Noach, but all of them are to be mit’haleich, to walk with God. And this seems to be the unique moment when people are called to walk before God. הִתְהַלֵּךְ לְפָנַי וֶהְיֵה תָמִים, walk before God.

And is there something about being Kel Shakai that connects with walking before God? Because it sort of sounds like that from the verse: אֲנִי־קל שַׁקי — I am Kel Shakai, הִתְהַלֵּךְ לְפָנַי וֶהְיֵה תָמִים. And you posed this question, how's it different to walk before God than to sort of walk with God? 

And you came upon another case, two generations later, when Yaakov was talking and he references this idea of walking before God, but he does it in the context of calling God his Shepherd, right? And what he says is that, “The God who is רֹעֶה אֹתִי, who shepherded me; the God before whom my forefathers have walked; this is the God that I call upon to bless Ephraim and Menashe.”

And you wondered whether there was a connection between this notion of walking before God and the other thing that Yaakov references there. You know, one way of seeing it as “You are the God Who shepherded me,” and the other way of seeing it as “My forefathers are the ones who walked before You.” And you said could it be that those aren't two different things, but those are one in the same thing, or one is sort of an explanation of the other. What does it mean to be “God Who is shepherding me?” It means “the God before whom I walk.” And this is where you referenced your conversation with your friend, the shepherdess.

Beth: Thank you, Lisa. Well, she's not a shepherdess, but she knows shepherds. She consults with dairy farmers and tells them what they should feed their cows. So yeah, she was a great resource.

How a Shepherd Leads From Behind

Rabbi Fohrman: So what she suggested is that, the way shepherds work is, they don't actually walk in front of their flock. They walk from behind their flock and they sort of surreptitiously guide the flock. When we talk about “to follow like sheep,” sheep like following each other. That's what they're kind of into. So a sheep thinks that what they're doing is following the sheep in front of them, but they don't realize that the shepherd, who they can kind of catch just out of the corner of their peripheral vision, is in fact leading them, but from behind. So I would say, well, if he's from behind, how is he going to lead them?

So first of all, can you just describe how that works? In other words, how does a shepherd lead sheep from behind?

Beth: Yeah, so my understanding is like this: I'll start out with what might seem like a mysterious statement and then clarify it a bit. To the extent that sheep are followers, I agree with you, but I think it might be more accurate to say not that they follow the sheep that are in front of them, but that they follow the sheep that are behind them.

Which means, my understanding — thank you Lisa — is that when a sheep is trying to decide, so to speak, where to move to, the sheep has an instinct that, when it perceives pressure from behind, from the sheep behind it, it moves in the direction that it's being pushed.

And therefore, if the shepherd stands all the way at the back, and the shepherd, with his staff or with her staff, is sort of very gently applying pressure to that back-back-back sheep, that back-back-back sheep is going to be driven by its instinct to move forward. And it nudges the sheep in front of it, and that one nudges the sheep in front of it, and as a result, it's the shepherd all the way in back who's the one who's determining the course.

But all he needs is to be that first, you know, that first domino, and then it's the sheep who are taking over. 

Rabbi Fohrman: I think your point was also that the sheep do have some choices to where they go, and the shepherd, in broad strokes, can sort of guide them to avoid a pitfall here or there. But there is some sense in which sheep do sort of determine their course. Shepherds are there to make sure they don't get into too much trouble, and, in extreme situations, can guide them here or there.

Beth: Right, which sort of gets to the question of, what instincts do the sheep have and are they good instincts? And I think the answer is, most of the time they are good instincts. So most of the time, the sheep would probably be okay if they were left to their own devices and they were going where they wanted to go. But there are some situations in which the shepherd knows best, so he can gently exert his influence and redirect. 

How is God like a Shepherd?

Rabbi Fohrman: So I found that really interesting, and what you suggested is, there's sometimes that God can lead from behind and sometimes God can lead more overtly from the front. And God is saying to Moshe, “I'm taking over as Yud-Kay-Vav-Kay in a more direct way right now with signs and wonders, but don't think that I don't lead you even when it's much more much more covert and I'm just from behind.” And there's this dance in which human free will sort of dances with God leading from behind, which creates the normal flow of history, you know, other than the dramatic cases of what you'd see at Mitzrayim and things like that where God comes and says, “Well, it's time for a new name. I'm acting differently.”

Beth: And when you're being led from behind, you have to choose to interpret what might otherwise be explained as natural events as being events that are potentially being guided by God, whereas when God is leading from the front, it's undeniable. There's no room for interpretation.

Jacob’s Deathbed Blessing

Rabbi Fohrman: So what I wanted to do is just actually take you back into that text which you were looking at, which is the story of Yaakov blessing Ephraim and Menashe and saying that “God was shepherding me, and the job of my forefathers was to walk before God.”

So let's open up to Genesis 48 verse 15. So he blesses Joseph and says: וַיֹּאמַר הָאֱלֹקים אֲשֶׁר הִתְהַלְּכוּ אֲבֹתַי לְפָנָיו —  The God before whom my fathers walked,  אַבְרָהָם וְיִצְחָק הָאֱלֹקים הָרֹעֶה אֹתִי — the God Who shepherded me, מֵעוֹדִי עַד־הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה — until this point. So: הַמַּלְאָךְ הַגֹּאֵל אֹתִי מִכׇּל־רָע — The angel that redeemed me from all harm, so this angel will bless these lads. 

So if we go back a little bit earlier in these verses, you see some interesting things. First of all, look at verse 11 right before this. Do you see in verse 11 anything that seems to be a play on words off of the idea, “הָאֱלֹקים הָרֹעֶה אֹתִי — The God Who shepherded me?”

Beth: Yeah. Are you thinking of the language of רְאֹה פָנֶיךָ, “seeing?”

Rabbi Fohrman: Yeah, well, keep on going.

Beth: Oh! And also, oh, וְהִנֵּה הֶרְאָה אֹתִי אֱלֹקים גַּם אֶת־זַרְעֶךָ.

Rabbi Fohrman: Right. הֶרְאָה אֹתִי actually is הָרֹעֶה אֹתִי if you just switch the א to the ע, which is really pretty interesting, right? So, in other words, one might think, what's one of the ways that God really shepherded Jacob from behind? Here Jacob goes, and there's this malach (angel) that redeems him from all harm. Well, what was the greatest harm that Yaakov had ever possibly imagined, you know, happening to him in his life? It was the loss of his precious son, right? It was Yosef, and for all he knew, he was gone and you'd never see him again. 

And then now there's all these crazy events. There's this famine, and then his children say “We’ve got to go down to Egypt, and we’ve got to take Benjamin,” and he's like, “Over my dead body. I'm not leaving Benjamin.” And then Benjamin gets kidnapped, and who knows what's going to happen. But Yehuda says, like, “Take me instead of Benjamin,” and the high Egyptian official breaks down crying, and it turns out that it's Joseph. And before you know it, Yaakov is going to meet up with Joseph and connects with him.

And now, it's almost as if, here is Yaakov reflecting on this. וַיֹּאמֶר יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶל־יוֹסֵף, and he's saying, “Look, רְאֹה פָנֶיךָ לֹא פִלָּלְתִּי, I never thought that I would ever even possibly even see you again.” And, וְהִנֵּה, “And not only do I see you again, but this is the most joyful moment in my life. וְהִנֵּה הֶרְאָה אֹתִי אֱלֹקים גַּם אֶת־זַרְעֶךָ — And now God has shown me also your children,” right? So I wonder if the play on words off of הֶרְאָה אֹתִי, “has shown me, also, your children” is a deliberate play off of what will become “The God who is רֹעֶה אֹתִי, Who shepherded me.” Which is, what's the greatest expression that he now sees of God shepherding him, of leading him from behind in places that he needed to go? It’s to reveal to him his long lost son, and not just his long lost son, but his children as well that he can now claim as his own and bring into the fold. And maybe this is one of those tangible examples of what it means to be shepherded by God, or a God Who leads from behind.

Beth: How do you think verse 10 plays into that? Verse 10, where we get a description of Yaakov's inability to see, and he says לֹא יוּכַל לִרְאוֹת. Which, I'm wondering if there's a message there around, you know, I don't know, like a shepherd is like the eyes of the sheep.

Rabbi Fohrman: Yeah, and it goes back with memories of another time that there was a man who couldn't see well, and there was another man who, you know, his child came close to him; and Yaakov, at that point, was the child and not the father, and his father was Isaac who couldn't see.

Beth: Which is arguably, like, the seed of all of this.

Rabbi Fohrman: Yes, the seed, at some level, of Michirat Yosef (the Sale of Joseph) itself, which is Yaakov dressing up with the goatskins of his brother and slaughtering a goat and bringing it to his father; ends up with his children bringing a goat to him and taking and smearing it upon the coats of his son. And so somehow, the seeds of Michirat Yosef go back to his father's own deception at that moment. 

But here's this moment when it's been redeemed, when somehow the circle has closed and he finds himself now in the role of his own father. But coming to him now is not a child who's going to deceive him, who he can kiss and be deceived, which was what Yaakov did to Yitzhak at that point.

But now, here's Yosef, a loyal child who comes to bring his own children to hug, and it's the sign of the circle closing and of this moment of joy of what has been a very, very difficult life for Yaakov. And at that point, isn't it true, isn't it amazing that וְעֵינֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל כָּבְדוּ מִזֹּקֶן; he can't see (Genesis 48:10). And yet, at some level, he can see better than he's ever seen before, in the sense that רְאֹה פָנֶיךָ לֹא פִלָּלְתִּי; “I never imagined that I would see you, but now God has shown me your seed.”

And it's, I think, it's, as you say, that God has shown me, God has allowed me to see. I.e., my eyes can't see, but it's a double entendre. On one hand, my eyes can't see, but God has brought before me your children; or, God has given me the vision that I lack. Why? Because what does a shepherd do? A shepherd's from way behind. You think, what could a shepherd see? But a shepherd's ability to perceive outstrips that of the sheep, and the shepherd from afar can see the kind of dangers that a sheep somehow can't even see up close. And that's the kind of hoda’a, the kind of recognition that Jacob seems to have of God in this moment, that everything is kind of working out.

Beth: Yeah, I appreciate the way that you're taking us back into the context of this moment, because when I looked at this passuk (verse), I was really examining it in a vacuum. And I was thinking to myself, you know, okay, so when Yaakov is administering this blessing, what is he saying and what does he mean, הָאֱלֹקים אֲשֶׁר הִתְהַלְּכוּ אֲבֹתַי לְפָנָיו? To me, that sounded like, okay, so his father and grandfather taught him. They passed on this tradition to him that, you know, God is the One before Whom we walk. They taught him the language, so he's parroting that back.

But this isn't just him teaching us in a vacuum what it means to be הִתְהַלֵּךְ before God. The second clause, which is הָאֱלֹקים הָרֹעֶה אֹתִי מֵעוֹדִי עַד־הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה, it sounds very personal. You're right, it's like, “My forefathers, they did ‘walking before,’ but I personally feel that I have been shepherded by God.” And, yeah, and it's an interesting question to ask: What is he seeing right now in his own life that makes him feel that way that inspires him to open up with his blessing?

Jacob’s Reflections on His Past

Rabbi Fohrman: Yep, and what's particularly sort of chilling and beautiful about it is, I'd like to ask you to go back just a little bit further now to an earlier point in the story. Remember, here is Yaakov encountering Ephraim and Menashe, but it turns out that actually, just a little bit earlier in the story, he had also been talking about Ephraim and Menashe.

Let's go back to one point just a little bit earlier; I want to take you to verse 2. So, people came and told Yaakov, “Here's your son Yosef, he's coming to you.” And he gathered all his strength and he sat up on the bed. So Jacob says to Yosef, look at what he says: קל שַׁקי נִרְאָה־אֵלַי.

Beth: Oh, okay. That's very interesting.

Rabbi Fohrman: “The God Shakai, came to me in Luz, back in Bet-El, in Eretz Canaan. וַיְבָרֶךְ אֹתִי - And He blessed me.”

Beth: Wow. Okay, I'm really glad you're making these connections. I remember now when I had done the research for this piece. We have the story, as you said, you know, in Genesis 17, of God appearing to Abraham and saying, “I am Kel Shakai.” I think there's a Yitzchak iteration as well, and here is our Yaakov iteration; which is, in other words, like, in Parshas Vaera when God says, “I appeared to your forefathers as Kel Shakai,” God isn't just speaking metaphorically. There were these moments, part of the narrative in Tanach, when God appears. And here, as you're saying, the language is קל שַׁקי נִרְאָה־אֵלַי. Isn’t that interesting that this should be in the same chapter. Okay, keep going.

Rabbi Fohrman: Yes, it is in the same chapter and sort of is the context for what Yaakov is about to say. That, in other words, if we take your theory that God has been shepherding me this whole time and that the role of a sheep to a shepherd is to walk before, isn't it fascinating that the context is, you know, he says to Yosef, the very first thing he says to him is that “It was the God Shakai who came to me in Luz. I'm relating to the God Shakai now in everything that I'm talking to you about.” Remember, this is Yakov and his deathbed reflecting on a particular moment in his life.

Revisiting Beit El

And so now, let's look at this moment in Yaakov's life and ask ourselves, why would God have revealed himself as Kel Shakai specifically at that moment in his life? This is Yaakov's second encounter with God in Bet-El. So let's just transport ourselves back all those years earlier, and let's relive what had happened.

Rabbi Fohrman: Bet-El is this fortuitous place that means “The house of God,” right? So let's remember what his first encounter with God at Bet-El is. So, the first encounter is when Yaakov had just been running away from his brother Esav. It's the beginning of Parshat Vayetze, and there he stops and he has this dream that God appears to him in this dream.

Now, Beth, if you were to assume the persona of Yaakov at that moment, right, so how's your life going now?

Beth: It's in the dumps. This is not how I expected things to play out.

Rabbi Fohrman: That's right. And are you worried? Are you concerned? Are you anxious?

Beth: I'm all of those things. I am literally fearful for my life because my brother, who has sworn that he will murder me, might be hot on my tail, and I'm separated from my family. I had hoped that I might be able to take on the mantle of leadership and service of God from my father. It seems like that's also lost. 

Rabbi Fohrman: Yeah, and this whole blessing that you managed to pilfer from your father, it was all about being a leader; “Create this great nation and inhabit the land of Israel.” And look at you, you're off in exile and you don't have a penny to your name. You're not even married and things don't even look great for you, right?

So at that moment, here comes God and God reiterates this promise and says, “You know what, it's going to be okay. You're going to have these children. You're going to have this great nation. It's going to come from you, and I'm going to give you this land.” And then God says to him something else. He says, “I'm going to be with you,” right? “I'm going to watch over you wherever you go, and I'm going to bring you back to your father's house, ultimately.”

And then, things continue to not go so well for him. I mean, the few days that his mother had talked about for this exile, he'll just be gone a few days. They stretch into weeks and stretch into months and stretch into years. He starts working for Rachel. We've spent seven long years working for her. Those years become 14 years. He really is in exile for a long time until this angel, you know, he mentions these angels who redeem him from bad things. This angel appears to him in a dream and says “It's time to come home.”

And you can imagine that moment when the angel says, you know, “I'm God, and it's time to come home.” It's like, wow, really? Like, I'm going to be protected? That's amazing! Like, he thinks it's all behind him…only to discover that it's not.

And Esav is angry and coming in with 400 men, but somehow he manages to reconcile with Esav, reconciles with his long lost brother. At that point, when all of that is over again, his daughter is is taken and kidnapped in Shem, and his brothers perform this Entebbe rescue that goes bad. And he's kind of limping away from that, but the good news is that he's finally coming home and he's finally coming home to the land of Canaan and he's got a family and he's got children, right?

So if you think about this in the larger scope of things, that he's supposed to build this nation with children and supposed to have this nation in the land. If you're Yaakov now, as you're kind of limping home and you've successfully reconciled with Esav, you're about to see your parents again, right? How are you feeling now? 

Beth: First of all, just incredibly warmed by the fact that God's promise seems to have come true and, like, the hard days are over. And hopefully, the blessings are going to start to blossom, you know, as early as tomorrow.

Rabbi Fohrman: That's right. So let's pick up the narrative then in chapter 35, verse 1. So God says to Yaakov: קוּם עֲלֵה בֵית־אֵל — I want you to go back to the place where you felt so anxious, when you were on the lam, when you were running away. וְשֶׁב־שָׁם — I want you to stay there for a while, וַעֲשֵׂה־שָׁם מִזְבֵּחַ, and make an altar to celebrate the God, הַנִּרְאֶה אֵלֶיךָ — Who appeared to you. There are those words again, “Who appeared to you. Who made Himself seen to you when you were running away from Esav.” And so, this is your chance to sort of recognize that things have come full circle, that everything is fine, right?

And so, Yaakov says, “Okay, everyone's got to go,” and they all go up and he builds this altar for God in Bet-El. And God appears to him in Bet-El, and He blesses him. And in verse 10, he reaffirms this new name that he got when he struggled with the angel: שִׁמְךָ יַעֲקֹב — Even though your name is Jacob, לֹא־יִקָּרֵא שִׁמְךָ עוֹד יַעֲקֹב — you're not going to be called that. You have a new name, Yisrael. And this is the birth of Israel and the children of Israel. It all starts now. “Israel is your name. וַיִּקְרָא אֶת־שְׁמוֹ יִשְׂרָאֵל — And I will call your name Israel.” And at that moment, God says to him: אֲנִי קל שַׁקי — I am the God Shakai. פְּרֵה וּרְבֵה — I want you to have children. גּוֹי וּקְהַל גּוֹיִם יִהְיֶה מִמֶּךָּ — Nations will come from you,  וּמְלָכִים מֵחֲלָצֶיךָ יֵצֵאוּ — Kings are going to come forth from you. 

Now if you're Yaakov, how are you feeling now?

Beth: I mean, I'm on top of the world.

Rabbi Fohrman: You're on top of the world. You have a chance of finally making this destiny come true. You are supposed to be the leader of this family who are supposed to pick up the mantle of the Abrahamic blessing. And here God comes and says, “You're going to have this great nation that comes from you and kings are going to come from you. You're going to actually have a stable system of governance. You're going to be able to take possession of this land.”

Here's only one little thing about this, that God says, “I am Kel Shakai.” Which, according to you, would mean what?

Beth: Well, according to me, it means that God is about to start leading from behind.

Rabbi Fohrman: That's right. Or, God is emphasizing, “You know Me, I'm the God who leads from behind. You’re not going to be able to see Me in front,” right? “You're going to have your own choices to make, and it's going to take you in lots of different places, but I'm still there leading from behind.”

Look what the next thing that happens is. If you would stop Jacob and say, “Jacob, what do you think is going on in your life now? You're going to have all these kids. Who do you think is going to give you all these kids? You have two wives, but we all know that there was one wife who you always planned to marry. You probably bet there's going to be a lot of new children from Rachel,” right? The next thing that happens is…?

Beth: That Rachel dies. 

Rabbi Fohrman: Rachel dies, and all of sudden, oh my gosh, things are not so great. I mean, this is the great tragedy of his life, but that tragedy is surmounted by one more tragedy that's going to happen in the very next major event. Because the next major event is when Yaakov comes to the land of Canaan, thinking that it's his to take possession of, that he's finally arrived at this moment where kings are going to come, only to have this strife well up in his family and have Joseph sold to a slave in Egypt. And pretty soon, they're all coming down to Egypt.

Beth: He goes from being on top of the world to having lost everything. You lose Rachel, you lose Yosef, you almost lose Benjamin. Yeah.

Jacob’s Enhanced Vision

Rabbi Fohrman: So here is Yaakov. Now fast forward to his deathbed moment, and he's remembering this moment of Bet-El. And he's saying, you know, at that moment, I really thought that I knew the future. I thought that it was the end of history, that God's going to take charge and lead from ahead, just making all these kings happen, and we were on Easy Street. But little did I know that what God was telling me when he said, “אֲנִי־קל שַׁקי — That I am the God Shakai,” is that, no, God was my shepherd, and it was my job to walk before Him, and that I would make these choices and I would stumble and I would fall. But somehow, there would be a shepherd, and one way or the other we would get there.

And I see that, in a way, my life took the strangest and most difficult of turns. Not only did I lose Rachel, I lost Joseph and I almost lost Benjamin. But now, God, who can see better than I can — I'm blind, I can't see anything — but God has now shown me your children; הֶרְאָה אֹתִי…אֶת־זַרְעֶךָ. That's the God הָרֹעֶה אֹתִי, who can shepherd me from behind.

But Beth, you and I know something that Jacob doesn't even know yet. Because what's really on the horizon is something even more tragic than the loss of Joseph and the loss of Rachel. Jacob is standing on the cusp of 210 years of slavery and doesn't see that. And the truth is that God will continue leading from behind through all of these years. Jacob really is blind. He can't see. God really is his eyes and Who's leading him forward even more than he can possibly imagine.

And at the end of all of that, the next iteration of stumbles and of God leading from behind, the Shepherd will finally make history come to where it needs to go; until God shows up to Moses at the Burning Bush and finally tells him that he's not Kel Shakai anymore, and when He finally says, you know, “This is the time I lead from ahead. This is the time that you can understand Me as Yud-Hey-and-Vav-Hey. I will take the leadership role and make these plagues happen and take you forward. This is the new kind of relationship that you have with Me.”

But it's a humbling thing that you can recognize that there's something called the God of Shakai and begin to see in retrospect how God has led you in these ways and express gratitude for God leading you from behind without even beginning to imagine how much more leading from behind God will continue to do in your life. But as difficult as it gets, at least God is there and He does lead from behind even in those difficult times.

Beth: That's right, and there's a sort of kindness to God revealing himself as Kel Shekai in those moments. Because basically, it's a way of saying, “Hint, hint; things are about to go not as you planned. But when that happens, remember this moment and know that even that was according to My plan. And when it doesn't feel that I'm behind you, in fact I am.”

Rabbi Fohrman: Interesting. Anyway, Beth, I wanted to share some of those thoughts with you. Thank you for thinking it through with me. 

Beth: Thanks for opening this up, Rabbi Fohrman.

Rabbi Fohrman: Good to see you, Beth. Thanks for hanging out with me. 

Credits

This episode was recorded by Rabbi David Fohrman together with Beth Lesch.

This episode was produced by Sarah Penso.

Our audio editor is Hillary Guttman.

Our production manager is Adina Blaustein.

Our senior editor is Ari Levisohn. 

Thank you so much for listening, and we’ll see you next week.